I’ve had plenty of opportunity to chat with people about interns, young professionals, and college grads. There is an article over on Business on Main that talks about starting up right after college and I’ve been reading some thoughts from Douglas Karr.
Douglas Karr (of the Marketing Technology Blog) and I had a brief sparring match on his post, You Don’t Pay for Social Media Consultants. Now, it is hard for me to read this post and not feel like he is pointing the finger directly at me.
Let me tell you a little bit about me.
- I am a consultant, business owner, and young professional who has no prior experience in the world of digital marketing.
- I have had one job at Roundpeg, a small business marketing firm, for 6 months after I graduated college.
- I started my first company at 24 in 2006.
- I worked my butt off, failed a ton (and I mean… a ton), and delivered some value to clients.
- I complete digital/social media training and high-level strategy.
- I do not implement and I am not a developer.
Doug states in his blog and comments that if you do not have the experience you should go get a job… and gain some experience. What happened to the spirit of entrepreneurship? From Doug’s blog comment:
Not sure I agree, Kyle. If someone doesn’t have the experience, they should take the time to go work somewhere and get it. I see too many companies steered into a mess by folks who lack the experience.
Maybe I am taking this out of context but it should be fairly insulting to every young entrepreneur who decided to go out on their own and start something… without having experience.
There should be a case made that results are paramount not experience. If a company hires someone with no experience and the person delivers… shouldn’t that be the only thing that matters? Sorry if you were outsold in the process.
Let me be very clear, I agree with Doug on showing results but I know plenty of older, more experienced professionals who have failed miserably even with plenty of experience. Business owners should hire based on experience, passion, drive, and relationships.
I believe a younger individual (or someone who lacks experience) can deliver on at least 3… and eventually the fourth!
What do you think?
Probably Rachel
It seems unfair to say that young consultants don't have experience. I'm not a consultant, but I work in an entry-level position at an advertising agency and am by far the youngest staff member and frequently find myself fielding questions, specifically about technology and social media because those are the areas where I'm the one with the experience.
kylelacy
Would you agree that there is a different between usage experience and results experience?
Probably Rachel
I would agree that there's a difference between usage experience and results experience. However, I personally feel there's a connection between the two, without my usage of social media I wouldn't be able to get results. One of the largest hurdles in implementing a social plan for our clients is getting them comfortable with the networks, which is much more natural for younger people. Recent graduates and seasoned professionals have been learning how to use most forms of social media at the same time so the playing field is a little more level that way.
Also, I think that one negative experience with a young consultant can sour someone's view of all young consultants.
Douglas Karr
Hi Probably Rachel. You're right, that would absolutely be unfair. That's why I didn't say anything about "youth" and ONLY spoke about results and experience. I don't give a crap how old someone is – I'd encourage you to read the comments on the post Kyle is writing about before thinking that's what I said. Regards – Doug.
Jake Rouse
I couldn't agree with you more Kyle. As an entrepreneur and soon to be college grad, I have had a few consulting clients who knew that while I haven't "worked" for someone else that my drive, passion, and enthusiasm would deliver the results they were looking for. The "process" of getting a job to gain experience and in time doing something with it is flawed and many new college grads are starting to see that.
It's all about the person not the experience.
kylelacy
I would say that it is all about the person that can create and live the experience while producing results.
Albert Qian
So, hire a dinosaur instead who has to struggle through email? The point here is completely off the wall. If you can deliver, and if you can show that you know what you are doing, then you have a good chance. Passion, knowledge and strategy in the mind are always better than saying "hey I have 30+ years, I'm better!". One is factual, and the other is factual but with a tinge of ego.
kylelacy
Well said, Albert.
Douglas Karr
Totally agree with you Albert! Results are everything. I never mentioned 'youth' once in the conversation; however, my words were misrepresented in the post above (and the one following). I'd encourage you to read the original post and not this fiction above.
Lindsay
I agree! I spent 6 years in the corporate world as a strategy consultant before working for myself as an online marketing / social media consultant.
I certainly learned a lot during my corporate life, but not all of that is even applicable to my current career. In fact, I've been having unlearn many bad habits I picked up in the corporate world (my corporate detox).
I think that young entrepreneurs can learn more by starting their own business than by going to grad school or working as a corporate drone. They may have a harder time finding those first few clients, but once they do they'll have the results to prove they know what they're doing.
kylelacy
What type of bad habits? I am interested. 🙂
Douglas Karr
Totally agree, Lindsay. I love working with young entrepreneurs. They've not been tainted and they're fearless. Unfortunately, Kyle misrepresented my conversation with him. I never mentioned 'youth'… only results and experience. I'd encourage everyone here to read the original conversation.
Srinivas
I have say the the best way to gain experience with something is to actually do it. When I see the job descriptions that say 7-10 years of social media experience, I cringe because it's like trying to find a person who doesn't exist. If somebody says they do have the experience, they're full of it. I know plenty of young inexperience entrepreneurs who have gambled and succeeded. So I"m all for hiring young people.
kylelacy
It is more about an integration of tools within the scope of digital marketing right? You aren't going to find a social media person who has had 10 years of experience. However, you will find a direct marketer who has had 20 years of experience.
DrDeadline
True.
Douglas Karr
I've hired 2 young people myself, Srinivas! And that will probably continue. What Kyle fails to mention above is that I never once mentioned 'youth', I ONLY spoke to results and experience. I also agree that there are very few Social Media folks with 7 to 10 years of experience.
Joe
Well put Kyle, I set up as an independent social media manager in the UK earlier this year and have been advising companies about using social media. I read a ton of books and had some previous experience (but not that much). I know what I am talking about and am gaining experience. The hard thing is convincing people when you are starting out. Good luck with the biz.
kylelacy
Good luck with the company!
candacegodwin
Kyle you make solid points that hold up regardless of how much "job" experience you have or what "age" you are. I'm what you'd call a well seasoned marketer with more than 20 years experience in corporate settings, but I'm just now starting my own business. Yes, I can draw from my years of marketing and life experiences, but today's ever- and fast-changing technology requires even old dogs to learn the new tricks (pardon the cliche). I'm betting you're way ahead of me in certain areas. It's ability and results – not age.
kylelacy
Great way to put it – ability and results not the age. We all look at life and business a little differently right? We would all learn from each other in this process.
Douglas Karr
Totally agree with you, Candace! What Kyle didn't mention above was that I never mentioned 'age' or 'youth' – I only spoke to results and experience. Like you, I absolutely draw on my years of experience and it has served me well. And I put much faith in youth – hiring one of my employees directly out of high school and the other soon after graduating from Butler. They're absolutely amazing!
Sean
Kyle,
I do think passion plays a big part in good consulting regardless of age. Having experience in a few different areas has helped me identify solutions for clients that many consultants I have worked with overlook. I feel the more experience you have, the more you tend to see the "big picture" and "hear" what clients are not saying that can make a difference.
-Sean
Paul
I agree with Doug. You are not old enough to know how stupid you really are: But you won't understand what I just said for at least another 15 years.
On your side though, If I can't hire based on experience, I will hire based on work ethic and the willingness to learn.
kylelacy
We all have our own opinions and I will be the first to say that I am a little reckless/stupid. I understand that. The point of the post is to discuss the merits of hiring people who have no experience but drive and ambition.
Do you find it easy to figure out whether someone has great work ethic and willingness to learn before giving them a chance?
DrDeadline
Paul was a little rough, but actually right on point. Inexperienced entrepreneur is an oxymoron regardless of age. As Bo Peabody suggested in "Lucky or Smart" the best entrepreneurs are "C" students with great ideas but who lack the skill set needed to finish something. They hire the "A" students to bring their vision to fruition.
Absent experience, it is unlikely a young person would be smart enough to recognize when they're being lucky.
Then, of course, there is that whole overly entitled, no work ethic thing… which is another blog I think.
Nick Armstrong
Pathetic. Stereotypical ageist bullshit.
The only way to gain experience is via the school of hard knocks, and Mr. Deadline, I’ve seen six year olds who have a better handle on what it takes to be a successful entrepreneur than you.
I have had to earn everything I own. I work constantly to keep myself and my family happy and healthy. To assert that I can’t provide amazing service or world-class expertise because I’m 26 indicates a delusional bent that is likely sociopathic in nature.
My record is filled with victories both lucky and the result of tireless study combined with rapid-fire failure and recovery. I’m humble enough to know that I had luck on my side some of the time. I also know just how valuable my experience and youth are to my clients. And for the record, I had a 4.16 GPA in high school and a 3.54 in college. Along with the perfectly talented and amazing “elders” I am pleased to know, I also know plenty of deadbeat 40- and 50-something’s who gladly rip off businesses with their “years of experience” and are lucky they go undetected for as long as they do. I also know 20-something entrepreneurs who can run circles around their older “wiser” counterparts. Amazing, talented people exist at any age.
In summation, take your pathetic ageist rhetoric and shove it. Consider volunteering at a Young Entrepreneurs club or FBLA – you may learn a thing or two about how young people do business.
kylelacy
I don't know if I would go as far as to say that DrDeadline is "sociopathic in nature." I'm also not sure how bringing in an A student has anything to do with young entrepreneurs. Good thoughts, Nick, I like where your head is at.
Nick Armstrong
Kyle – That was in response to his Bo Peabody quote 🙂
kylelacy
Crap… I knew I missed something.
DrDeadline
Thank you Kyle. My Peabody reference was to acknowledge that young entrepreneurs do exist and share how someone else (a very successful young entrepreneur) characterized them.
I work closely every day with three "partners" whose cumulative age does not equal mine. We enjoy working together, all bring important skill sets to the table and compliment each other quite nicely.
Our clients are experiencing their hoped for results, the fruits of our labor, and are happy to pay us well for our services.
DrDeadline
Often in a discussion, those who become emotionally defensive, resorting to name calling and unfounded accusations, are grossly overreacting to unmade allegations and a misunderstanding of an opposing opinion. I'm unclear why you took this so personally, especially considering I hadn't accused you of anything.
In summation, please take your pathetic ageist rhetoric and follow your own advice.
Pardees
As a young consultant, I whole heartedly agree with this post. I've been doing social media consulting since I graduated college a year ago. It is sometimes rough if you do not have a track record. I did most of my first 6 months free of charge just to build my resume and show others what I can do. Now most of my nonpaying clients referred me to others who do pay.
In the end, it's all about the data–if you can prove you're just as good, if not better, than the other contenders, then no one can argue with you.
Douglas Karr
Pardees, you're absolutely correct. Kyle added his own color to our conversation by throwing 'age' into the argument. However, I corrected him in my comments and told him to not confuse youth and experience. The two are very different. It's all about results!
Lisa
Young Consultants might not have experience, but whatever happened to quality, innovation, ambition? Do those not count?
kylelacy
Absolutely! All of it counts right? Experience, innovation, quality, ambition, and drive. It is a matter of how you apply yourself.
BaileyNewMedia
Agreed, Lisa!
Douglas Karr
Actually, Lisa, I think some young consultants have incredible experience. This was the actual conversation that I had with Kyle. I never mentioned 'youth' or 'age'… only results and experience. I'm not sure why that was omitted in the conversation above. I'm disappointed that it wasn't clearly communicated.
Mitch Devine
How much experience did/does Mark Zuckerberg have? Or how about Sean Parker, who started Napster at 19 and by age 24 consulted and helped Zuckerberg get Facebook off the ground? How much experience did Steve Jobs have when he and Wozniak started Apple? How about Gates and Allen when they started Microsoft? Age is only one indicator of experience. Achievement is another.
kylelacy
Brilliant! I love the "age is only one indicator."
bellamarketing
Loving this thread. I see valid points on both sides. In 10-15 years – you will love your experience and rely heavily on it but we all have to appreciate and work with the skills we have at any given point.
I see Doug's point in that there are far too many out there selling strategy services when they really only know how to add paint to the surface. That does not apply to you Kyle – but certainly to MANY out there.
kylelacy
I do appreciate that. Thanks!
DrDeadline
As Karlyn pointed out, these (and Kyle) are exceptions to the rule. Bellamarketing, in agreeing with Doug, underscores the point I was making as well.
Douglas Karr
Very true, Mitch. What Kyle has failed to tell everyone is that I NEVER mentioned age – only results and experience.
gregg weiss
I'm with you, Kyle…
When I hire, I value "fire in belly" far more than "badge on shoulder".
kylelacy
Thanks for the comment Gregg!
MsEnglish1
Kyle, thanks for standing up for everyone with an entrepreneurial spirit. In an economy that essentially has no jobs to offer, I'd like to ask Doug where he suggests we go get a job from? Mitch, you also presented some great examples of why we can ignore Doug's post today.
kylelacy
I'm not going as far to say that you need to ignore Doug's post… far from it. I wouldn't ignore anything Doug writes… he always has extremely valuable content. Always.
DrDeadline
I believe it was C.S. Lewis that said, "Once you know the truth there is little reason to keep an open mind." (or words to that effect). I usually appreciate what Lewis had to say… except this time.
Jus' sayin'.
Chrissy Ward
I believe there is a difference between no experience and what a budding entrepreneur brings to the table. Quite different skills sets and drives.
Gagan Dhillon
For every failed young entrepreneur there is a successful one. For every successful "Experienced" business owner there is a failed one.
mrsmoti
Actually I'm quite old and see many contemporaries who find it difficult to sell themselves online. They've spent years building up relationship and track record and may have had the same clients for decades. They feel conveying this information will be sufficient to build up online reputation and business rather than offering content visitors something vital for the here and now.
DrDeadline
Accurate observation.
IWorkForALiving
If I want to hire someone to coach me on baking a cake. I'm going to hire someone who has baked a cake before. Someone who has baked many cakes before, and who's cakes I know taste good. Not someone who loves cake and enthusiastic about baked goods.
If this said cake consultant is 25 or 50 and they can bake an awesome cake, then I'll let them consult me on how to do the same. Its about experience, not age. You can't consult on something you aren't well versed in. You're lying to yourself and to your clients. Doesn't matter of you're oozing out the ears with passion or "entrepreneurship".
DrDeadline
Precisely.
kylelacy
Great comment. Thanks!
Bradley Gauthier
As a 25 year old entrepreneur I'm faced with reverse ageism on a daily basis. At least until they find out I started my company when I was 12 years old. Only then does the conversation change.
I hate the preconceived notions of a young face equals inexperience.
I'm glad that there a folks like you out there fighting for the cause 🙂
Keep up the great work!
Brad
Karlyn Morissette
Kyle, you have to understand that you are the exception to the rule and that most people at this place in their lives will, indeed, harm a company more than do them good. There are lots of people like you that are young, driven, work their asses off and do amazing things…but there are far far more who can talk a great game but not back it up. I wish more people like you existed to prove all the naysayers wrong…but unfortunately the stereotype is there for a reason.
DrDeadline
Thank you. Well said.
kylelacy
I appreciate that kind words, Karlyn. I'm going to upfront and say that I have harmed my fair share of clients when starting the consulting gig. However, if you choose to work hard and right the wrong… the client may decide to give you a second chance.
Let's kick ass and make a name for the young entrepreneurs! 🙂
Niranjan
Kyle,
This is the exact attitude which was my biggest barrier when I tried to work freelance as a consultant after Uni(with some prior but not extensive experience).
But, you do not seem to to have taken into consideration
1) New/fresh/out of the box thinking (which can often be the only way out for a sticky situation for the company in question)
2) The fact that someone with a prior relationship with the company could often not be in a position to reveal all as compared to a noob who has nothing to lose and everything to gain.
3) It often boils own to the quality of the analysis which a young hire can (with a little extra) achieve quite easily.
Nick Armstrong
Aside from what I wrote in response to DrDeadline – my response to reverse ageism was to lose most of my hair and go gray in the places it remained. I'm 26. 😉
kylelacy
I'm confused on whether or not you read the blog post. I'm agreeing completely with you.
Hire Young Expert Assistants, Hire Old Experienced Advisers | Kyle Lacy – Social Media Training and Digital Marketing
[…] might have read Kyle’s recent blog post about hiring young consultants. There’s a big discussion on that post, as well as on Doug Karr’s original post. […]
Douglas Karr
Kyle – you have paraphrased my comments and now turned me into someone who is discriminating based on age? C'mon man… this just pisses me off. I would honestly appreciate it you let your readers know that I never said ANYTHING about being "young".
I love "young" talent. Being "young" has the advantage of not dipping into conformity and being fearless. My company has ONLY hired "young" talent and will continue to do so.
ALL of my conversations with you on my site were regarding EXPERIENCE, not YOUTH. You continue to mistake one for the other. You also obviously took my remarks personally… even though I was never talking… or (sorry) even thinking about you. You actually have experience. You've worked with countless organizations and built some incredible experience. I respect you so much more than you recognize. If I were as fearless and talented when I was your age, I'd be on top of the world right now.
Stop taking shit the wrong way. And stop putting words in my mouth.
Chuck Gose
Nice to see you respond Doug. I think that for those of us who know you well and respect the work you do, it's clear that your beliefs and actions have been misrepresented here.
Steve Hill
If I said there was never a time where I felt overlooked or downplayed because of my age (23), I'd be lying. Quite frankly, I am written off people who think I'm too young, too emotional, too immature, or too inexperienced all the time. However, those are all people who don't really know me, don't know what I've done, or don't know what I'm capable of. That's fine with me because I do have people who believe in me and have witnessed first-hand what I can do.
But what's probably more important to me in this "experiential journey" has been my faith. I know that most people don't mix faith with business or think about how their spirituality can impact their professional lives, so the rest of my comment might resonate with too many people. So with that said I'm not sure how many of your readers regularly read the Bible, but there are two verses that I've found particularly uplifting when I feel doubted or written off for being young.
"Don't let anyone think less of you because you are young. Be an example to all believers in what you say, in the way you live, in your love, your faith, and your purity." – 1 Timothy 4:12
"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." – Jeremiah 29:11
Those two verses provide me with tremendous hope in my future.
Douglas Karr
Steve – that's great advice and awesome quotes. As you get my age, you get folks checking out your gray hairs and wondering if you can keep up! 🙂 I don't discriminate on 'age' and am disappointed that Kyle misrepresented me saying such things. I focus on results and experience – you need not be 'old' to have experience. I know plenty of folks that have little experience after a lifetime in a job – and others that have a ton of experience before getting out of college. Best of luck.
Steve Hill
I appreciate the reply Doug. There's a lot of truth to experience not always reflecting how much "time" has been spent in a particular role. After all, you can't gain experience without a desire and a conscious effort to learn.
aroundindy
This reminds me of the disc jockey in Evansville who got "fired" by his station manager back in 1971 — right there on the air — for playing the 5th Dimension's "Wedding Bell Blues" over and over again. I know it's true–I heard it live with my own ears 2/3 of my life ago. [Sidebar: Is that what you call "experience?"] Turns out it was just a promotional scam to raise the station's ratings during sweeps.
So I've got your number: you youngsters are just doing this to improve your SEO, right? It's the 21st Century version of "sweeps." Nice strategy, guys.
PS. Hmmm…1971. Where were YOU in 1971? [big smile]
Douglas Karr
I was 3, Bob :). You won't see a post about this from me. I'm not going to try to raise awareness to someone who didn't have enough common sense to represent me accurately or even warn me before he was going to write this BS.
aroundindy
I hope you sensed that I had my tongue firmly planted in cheek.
Why Are You Taking My Content Out of Context? | Kyle Lacy – Social Media Training and Digital Marketing
[…] many of you know, I wrote a blog post last week titled, Do Not Hire Young Entrepreneurs. They Have No Experience. The post was extremely well received and generated a ton of content and comments. However, I have […]
venturesome krysia
This is very interesting to me because I would love to be hired by a company to do social media, but lack the 2 years experience they want me to have with another company. So I find myself doing work on a consulting basis, because these are the opportunities that are coming my way. Adapting my thinking seems to be a necessarily quality for me to achieve my goals.
Brian Castell
Bravo. Dealing with this right now as I start my own Digital Marketing consultancy at http://www.bsfcinc.com. Any tips to break through the (perceived) age barrier?
John Doreson
I couldn’t agree more. This guy Doug does not realize how much insight young entrepreneurs can bring to old school, struggling companies. Sorry for being young and ambitious Doug, but the world is changing and a 25 year career at a large firm or corporation is no longer required for success here in America.
Startup Entrepreneur | On the Fringe
[…] of hiring a young consultant over someone who has more years of experience. Kyle Lacy’s article was a very fitting read for the night. Kyle disagrees with a comment made by Douglas Karr saying […]